A lawyer in Macau for 19 years and a member of the Macau Lawyers
Association (AAM) for 16 years, Pedro Leal is one of the most experienced law professionals in Macau, having practiced law here before and after
the handover of the territory to China. With a passion for penal law,
Leal has been involved in some historic and high-profile Macau court cases, including defending famous triad member Wan Kuok Koi, also known
as Broken Tooth, and defending the father of the former Secretary for Transport and Public Works accused of corruption, Ao Man Long. In an interview with Business Daily, the Portuguese lawyer offers his opinions on recent legal issues in Macau, such as the requirement that Portuguese law professionals practice law in the territory, the absence of the presumption of innocence in Macau, the case against former Prosecutor General of the Public Prosecutions Office Ho Chio Meng, and the need for reform in the Court of Final Appeal (TUI). The experienced lawyer also shares his views on the territorys drug policy, the abuse of pre-trial detention and the extradition of suspects from Macau.
Where does your passion for penal law come from?
I always loved crime cases. I remember I loved a TV series called Perry Mason when I was a kid. Even to this day, the TV series I watch are all related to criminal court cases. In crime cases there is a lot of contact with clients in court, and with witnesses. However, here we sometimes lose the spontaneity a bit, since if we see the witness lying, we cant intervene immediately as we have to wait for the translation. Although I can understand a bit of Cantonese, I cant ask questions in Chinese.
How do you see the current process against former Prosecutor General Ho Chio Meng?
The presumption of innocence exists for everyone, white collar or blue collar. Even if it had to be a court made up of all the judges in Macau, there needs to be the possibility of appeal for those kinds of decisions.
Its interesting because, we Portuguese lawyers, saw Ho Chio Meng say every year in his speech at the judicial year opening that there is a need for more Chinese language in Macaus laws, which always seemed like an indirect attack on us, yet now we are his biggest defenders. I havent seen a Chinese lawyer sticking his head out to defend Ho Chio Meng, again because of the absence of the presumption of innocence.
I dont understand why the Commission Against Corruption (CCAC) had to do a press conference about the prosecutors arrest, saying that he was trying to get out of the city. If the court is under a justice seal, it cant be discussed like that.
It was the same with Ao Man Long ten years ago, and it is something that shouldve been already reformed, with the TUI acting as prosecutor, criminal judge and interrogator. I just dont understand the resistance to changing this system.
Should Ho Chio Meng be judged as prosecutor?
Thats something the AAM President, Jorge Neto Valente, has stated a lot. When it comes to facing trial, Ho Chio Meng is considered a prosecutor. When it is regarding pre-trial detention he isnt. This ugly situation could be easily avoided by just saying that he could be free while awaiting trial, but couldnt leave Macau. The police could just put a guard watching him 24-7 and thats it.
Does the Macau judicial system abuse pre-trial detention?
There is an exaggerated use of pre-trial detention, which should only be used in some cases, but its almost the general rule now. Of course in homicide cases, or cases where there is a big risk of the accused escaping, it is justified. In Macau, if pre-trial detention is declared, rarely is it revoked, and I havent seen any case when it has happened.
Some lawyers have been stating that they dont know how Ho Chio Meng managed to be the top prosecutor, as they had witnessed many suspect cases on his part. Do you share that opinion?
As a lawyer I have to say I never had any bad experiences with the prosecutor or heard about any corruption. In fact, most of the accusations are related to his adjudication of public works. But as the AAM President has stated, if there was corruption at that level, there couldve been corruption in court cases, especially because nobody controls the Public Prosecutions Office (Macau MP) activities, and there is no last appeal process.
You defended the father of Ao Man Long, the former minister for transport and public works, and have previously criticised the absence of the presumption of innocence in Macau for the accused. Do you believe that this is a recurring problem in court cases in Macau?
I usually criticise the absence of the presumption of innocence in Macau, meaning that in Macau someone is considered a suspect in a case, and the Macau Public Procecutions Office (MP), starting with the police, places that person in an embarrassing situation with a hood on their head, handcuffed, behind a table with the apprehended goods in a press conference, stating that this person, using a certain nickname, did this and that, with the Macau MP sending an informative notice after the press conference. This presents the person to the public as an already accused person in a court case.
Why is this done?
If the case details are under judicial secrecy until the indictments are made public, then no details about the case can be discussed, but we do, meaning that this person is judged first in the court of public opinion. This shocks me.
What other justice issues in Macaus court system concern you?
Another situation is when someone is considered a defendant in a case, which means they are not considered guilty: if they are a Macau resident no problem; they might go to prison, or have their passport removed etc. However if they are a non-resident, a Blue Card (Temporary Work Permit) holder, or a Portuguese citizen, they are screwed, and get deported. This is horrible since that person hasnt even faced trial. Theyre just being questioned as a defendant, and immediately lose some of their rights. Ive had many similar cases, and this is something the Secretary for Administration and Justice should focus on, where defendants are deported from Macau and sometimes are even blocked from re-entering for five years, after only being interrogated as a defendant. For me this is an obvious absence of the presumption of innocence.
The Macau MP supports this system, since there is an article in the penal code stating that the defendant can declare that they agree to face trial in absentia, but the Macau MP makes the defendants sign a release, without any idea of what they are stating, agreeing to this trial in their absence. So the defendant is at a disadvantage because they are expelled from the territory and cant attend their own court trial, which is where their defense should happen.
Theres been a lot of discussion about bringing more Portuguese judges, lawyers and public prosecutors here, with the recent visit of the Attorney General of the Portuguese Republic, Joana Marques Vidal, and the new rules for lawyer admission exams for Portuguese lawyers. Do you believe a larger number of Portuguese law professionals would be beneficial or negative to Macau?
Portuguese lawyers have long fought to increase the number of decisions made in Portuguese, and for quality lawyers and judges from Portugal to come to Macau. Im not saying local Macau lawyers and judges are not good, but they generally dont have the ideal experience. Let me just say, without sounding prejudiced, I think the Chinese law course doesnt give the same experience as the Portuguese one. Why? Because Chinese lawyers just dont have access to the same reference books as Portuguese lawyers, so that limits them a bit.
In terms of prosecutors, I believe if there were enough prosecutor delegates, of which there are currently only three, we wouldnt have court cases expiring, which happens a lot. That happens because theres a lot of work to do, and in this case there should be more people. I think there has been a certain reluctance to bring magistrates from Portugal, when in fact the first Chinese magistrates in Macau learned from Portuguese magistrates. Macau has enough money and there are a lot of delayed court cases and inexperienced magistrates, so I think the territory can only profit from Portuguese law professionals coming.
In 2013 the protocol between the Portuguese Lawyer Association (OA) and the AAM, which allowed the entry of Portuguese lawyers to work in local offices, was suspended due to the high number of arrivals of Portuguese professionals. Do you think it should be easier for Portuguese lawyers to work in Macau?
Good Portuguese lawyers can do good anywhere Portuguese is the main language, so its our case. I dont know if there was any pressure on the AAM to cease the protocol with Portugal, but there were a lot Portuguese lawyers that had just finished law school who just needed to be registered there and could come here to work, passing over Chinese lawyers, which wasnt fair for them since they had worked and studied here, and were suddenly passed over like this. So I think the fairest method is the new one, with Portuguese lawyers simply doing the same law exam as local lawyers, or just becoming paralegals in law offices helping out while studying for the exam.
What is your opinion about the new requirements of five years of experience needed for lawyers to become notaries in Macau?
For me, five years of experience is nothing, they should have 10 years of experience. As an experienced notary, I know civil law is complicated and demands a lot of responsibility. I dont think there is a lack of notaries in Macau though. Ive been a notary since 1995 and I have had very little work in that area. What exists is a lack of notaries who write and understand Chinese.
For a long time, youve argued that law societies should be allowed in Macau. Do you think that issue will be resolved soon?
Ive been hearing about this issue for almost 20 years, and Ive seen a legal proposal related to it. Honestly for me, it doesnt make a difference, since I dont work in a law society, but there has been a lot of reluctance from most law offices who might be harmed by allowing law societies. So maybe thats why the situation still remains, although everybody knows a lot of law offices in Macau function like law societies.
What is your opinion about the debated new asset freezing law, and the offshore accounts issue in Macau raised by the Panama Papers?
I guess its related with the fight against terrorism and gun sales, but luckily Macau hasnt shown any indication it faces a terrorism threat, so if the law is made to prevent offshore accounts, the government should say so. Lets say if a Macau citizen opens an offshore account in Panama, its not a crime in Macau or in Panama. What has to be properly assessed is if that account is being used to avoid taxes.
Youve mentioned previously the problem in Macau is not an absence of laws, but the enforcement of the existing laws. Would you care to explain?
For example, there are laws that already prohibit money laundering, that lack enforcement. Take law offices for example; in Macau a lot of times clients want to pay in cash because there is not a tradition of writing cheques here. If I go to the bank today to deposit MOP100,000 (US$12,511) or MOP200,000 there will probably be some questions and Ill respond that its payments from my clients. So the banks already have the capacity to properly check if any money laundering is happening. Theres been a lot of talk about China stopping the money flow to Macau, and that the VIP business is suffering. In all honesty, China didnt close the money tap, they just started controlling the cash capital being moved out of the country to, for example, the United States, which is basic anti-money laundering control. Sooner or later it was going to happen.
Youve also argued a lot that the current drug laws in Macau are too strict. Do you still believe that?
Im totally anti-drugs, but whats happening in Macau is that we consider a drug trafficker and someone selling small amounts of drugs to friends at a party as the same thing. A drug mule is not the same as someone who went to China and bought a small amount of drugs for personal consumption. The law is too broad and prison sentences of between three to 15 years are just too strict. Something that happens in Macau and is unbelievable, is small time drug dealers and consumers are treated the same as big time drug dealers.
Do you consider that Macau still truly has a judicial system that is independent from the Chinese legal system, or is that independence being eroded? Can the Basic Law withstand pressure from China when it comes to the deportation of suspects, for example?
There are pro-China and anti-China people in the political sphere in Macau, and some TUI decisions state that you can’t take somebody who is wanted in China and deport them there. But I know that has happened with justifications like their ID has expired, even though its not true. What actually happened was the extradition of a wanted person, and that goes against the laws of the TUI. Thats whats more worrying.
